thanks for the recommendations diamondsandsweetpeas! I'll check those out.
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To 1dwing:
I think its important to think clearly when discussing these issues of overwieght and obesity. We are, basically talking about the biology and physiology of the body. I think its tempting to think of these issues in terms of morality. If you do good things and sacrifice, you get good things. If you do bad things and don't sacrifice, you get bad things. But none of this has anything to do with how the body works. We know people get fat because they eat too much and/or move too little. That's not the question. The question is why do some people eat too much and move too little. Is it really because they are lazy or gluttonous? The carb/insulin hypothesis says that the arrow of causation is backwards. In other words, we don't get fat because we eat too much and move too little. We eat too much and move little, BECAUSE were getting fat! |
Originally Posted by getfit1980
(Post 83700)
To 1dwing:
I think its important to think clearly when discussing these issues of overwieght and obesity. We are, basically talking about the biology and physiology of the body. I think its tempting to think of these issues in terms of morality. If you do good things and sacrifice, you get good things. If you do bad things and don't sacrifice, you get bad things. But none of this has anything to do with how the body works. We know people get fat because they eat too much and/or move too little. That's not the question. The question is why do some people eat too much and move too little. Is it really because they are lazy or gluttonous? The carb/insulin hypothesis says that the arrow of causation is backwards. In other words, we don't get fat because we eat too much and move too little. We eat too much and move little, BECAUSE were getting fat! |
1dwing:
Echoing what getfit1980 said, Taubes' book is about the biology of obesity. I don't agree with everything that's in there (including Taubes' contention that exercise is pointless for weight loss), but it does form a good basis for figuring out how to control dietary variables to keep weight down. If you see any of my posts in other threads, you'll see that we're on the same page regarding calories in vs. calories out. There's no doubt that calories matter. Mike already has a thread to your point called something like "hey fattie, excuses why you are fat" for people to air their misgivings. After you've admitted your excuses, figuring out what you're going to do about it is the next step. Rubystars: I think we need to step back here a moment. A lot of people conflate Taubes' work with the paleo community. It's easy to do since a lot of people who start with GCBC eventually make their way into paleo. But it's not the only theory of obesity floating around. Stephen Guyenet has a pretty well articulated food reward theory that IMO needs some more scientific rigor at this point (modern processed foods release too much dopamine, essentially turning them into dietary cocaine). Taubes' insulin hypothesis is on better scientific footing at the moment. That said, I also think that from the outside, there is rightly a view that paleo evangelists live in a bubble of cognitive dissonance. I would argue that the people that are most vocal about paleo are those who have recently tried it (the "book version") and had success; these are people who have done numerous "diets" in the past and paleo is another "diet" that worked for them. As a result, for them there is only one "paleo diet" which excludes certain foods and includes others. This cannot be repeated often enough, but THERE IS NO ONE, SINGLE ALL-ENCOMPASSING PALEO DIET. Arctic Inuits did not eat the same food as tropical islanders. Heck, even among islanders, there are nations where coconut and fat cuts of fish and wild pig were staples (very high fat), and other nations where root vegetables formed the base of every meal (very high starch). Also, most cultures outside of America and Europe supplemented their diets with insects. So it's fallacious to assume, for everyone, that there is only THE paleo diet as written. Or what I like to call, the "book version." |
One at a time.
Originally Posted by Rubystars
(Post 83625)
I don't think it oversimplifies it at all. You need to eat less than you burn to lose weight.
If you eat tons and tons of meat every day that's a sure fire way to set yourself up for high cholesterol and a heart attack or stroke. 2) Unless you have familial hypercholesterolemia, eating cholesterol won't raise your blood cholesterol. Total blood cholesterol comes from both dietary and endogenous sources. In other words, eat more cholesterol, and your liver makes less of it. Eat less, and your liver makes more to make up the difference. What does raises cholesterol to a very significant effect is carbohydrate, particularly high-glycemic, refined carb, but also the lower glycemic stuff. Regarding saturated fat, Krauss et al. did a survey study of the last 30 or so years of saturated fat and heart disease research and found that there is no connection whatsoever between dietary saturated fat intake and incidence of heart disease. 3) High cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease. It might be a marker for inflammation and vessel damage. So the goal of any intervention should be to lower inflammation, not lower cholesterol. An analogy: lowering cholesterol is like trying to treat a scrape by reducing your access to band-aids. Greater use of band-aids is a sign that you're scraped up pretty bad. But your scrapes are not being caused by your greater use of band-aids. Some of our Ice Age ancestors (if your ancestos were in Europe) didn't eat very much vegetation because it wasn't available in big quantities on the wind blown steppes. However eating the way they did will lead to an early death. It didn't matter so much for them. They had children at young ages and lived long enough to pass on their lifeways and wisdom to the next generation, but by today's standards their lives were very short. Fatness was valued (look at the Venus figures) because it meant surviving through times when less food was available. I think today when we are in a state of constant plenty, avoiding fatness (which goes against our instincts) is the key to survival. Taking advantage of the phytonutrients, fiber, and vitamins and minerals found in vegetables and fruits makes sense. Every major civilization has a carb based diet, and most of these carbs are grains. Grains didn't pop out of nowhere. Even our remote ancestors ate grass seeds sometimes, just not in the quantities we do today, and since the ice age, European people and those in the Middle East in particular have eaten a LOT of grain, and mostly, it benefited society. Whole grains also have a lot of minerals, antioxidants, phytonutrients, and fiber. To say we're not evolved to eat grain is taking a skewed view of evolution. Humans have always eaten seeds. Grass seeds are just another type of seed that was consumed in the distant past too. Refined grains aren't very good for you but whole grains are fine. Legumes aren't some abomination. They're also healthy for people. I have no idea why paleo eaters are against legumes. It's not terribly complicated. Get your vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, and fiber from leafy greens, fruits, nuts, and seeds. Get carbs, when you need them, from fruits, starchy root vegetables, honey, tree saps. Get protein and fat from meat, eggs, nuts and seeds. It's sustainable, and not all that expensive if you plan it well. It's certainly cheaper than medical bills. I've been at it for 3 years already. And if it doesn't work for you, so what? Go find something that does. :) |
I'll come back and respond to your points later (have to go to work in a few minutes) but I probably agree with you more than I disagree. About grains and legumes though. If they were so horrible for us, then why is it that one of the main foods that kids ate when I was young were Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwiches, and it never harmed any of us?
I mean it had wheat and peanuts in them! I never heard back then of anyone having a bad reaction to the bread or to the peanuts (or any other type of nut, legume or not). If you listened to the modern gluten-free advocates and the "nut free zone" advocates then you'd assume all of us kids should've been falling on the floor having seizures. I don't personally believe there's anything harmful in grains or nuts or legumes for most healthy individuals. I also have a tendency to believe that most gluten sensitivities and nut allergies are psychosomatic or completely fake because I never heard of any of this back in the 80s when I was growing up and every kid brought a PB&J to lunch (without having an anaphylactic shock attack, imagine that). Now I know that for a small portion of the population, that there are real wheat allergies, peanut allergies, celiac disease, etc. so if you have these conditions then I'm not talking about you, but I don't think it's nearly as common as people think it is. |
Psychosomatic or not, IMHO it's not worth the shrink hours to correct a perceived gluten intolerance so it might be easier to just not eat gluten grains, since the nutrients are found elsewhere. (I'm not hating on psychiatrists, btw; I have psych friends).
I don't really believe that the anti-nutrients in grains or legumes do any significant damage over the short-term. I too, ate PBJ's in elementary school and literally pounds of pasta during my teenage growth spurt. It's the cumulative damage over the long term from three constituents I'm concerned about: 1) phytic acid, which is a very negative molecule that binds readily to positive ions like calcium, magnesium, and potassium and decreases absorption in the intestine; 2) lectins, which are plant proteins that can irritate the intestinal lining and increase it's permeability to larger molecules and proteins, which then provoke an allergy-like immune response; 3) canavanine, an amino acid found in beans that resembles arginine. It can take arginine's place in certain proteins, which screws up their structure and renders them useless. It also interferes with arginine's ability to stimulate the production of nitric oxide, which relaxes blood vessels and reduces blood pressure. Here's three things I'm not concerned about: 1) natural saturated and monounsaturated fat, and w-3: SFA's are used as energy when there's little exogenous glucose floating around. Many also only raise HDL, and not LDL. Notable exception being palmitic acid, found in palm oil. MUFA's and w-3's produce anti-inflammatory byproducts. w-6's on the other hand, produce inflammatory byproducts. 2) protein: up to 1g/lb body weight combined with heavy lifting promotes dense bone growth. 3) getting enough glucose: the human liver manufactures about 720 calories worth of glucose per day, mainly from glycerol, the backbone of fat molecules. This is more than enough to power the brain. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, I'm just a biochemistry nerd with time and a loud mouth. Don't take it personally :D |
I had to shorten some of the quotes because I went over the character limit.
But, it is much easier to eat less when you aren't hungry all the time. 1) Taubes' downfall is that he lays out this beautiful theory but no explanation of how to actually implement it. 2) Unless you have familial hypercholesterolemia, eating cholesterol won't raise your blood cholesterol. Total blood cholesterol comes from both dietary and endogenous sources. 3) High cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease. It might be a marker for inflammation and vessel damage. The modern approach scraps all of that and builds something from scratch, then claims that paleo is the approach that makes no sense. Slightly overweight people are actually the ones that live the longest in our society. Yet they're in the group that's maligned. I think that people tried to eat as many calories as they could, when they could. History has always been feast and famine, and when famine times came, those with more fat survived better, and so that's why a lot of us have a genetic tendency to be fat. Many of the people who didn't died and didn't leave any descendants. In short, grains are a cheap source of calories, easily stored, good to survive on, but not to thrive on. Whole grains don't have anything that you can't get from other sources. It's estimated that around 40% of the American population is gluten-sensitive (whether it's diagnosed or not), so there's no good reason to purposefully eat grains, whole or refined, if you can avoid them. If you went to someone in the Middle Ages and offered them a loaf of bread when they were hungry do you think, that it's even remotely possible that the person would say "Oh no thank you, bread makes me feel icky". Heck no! They'd eat it, and feel better afterward. I don't know what happened to people today. Why are people suddenly developing these strange reactions to things that have been safe for thousands of years? Why does someone today suddenly claim to be gluten intolerant when their great grandparents had bread at every meal and lived to a ripe old age? Could there be an environmental contaminant? To the point about seeds, and also non-gluten grains, many paleo advocates have no problem with them. Legumes are another one of those foods where if you can get the nutrients somewhere else, why eat them? It's not terribly complicated. Get your vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, and fiber from leafy greens, fruits, nuts, and seeds. Get carbs, when you need them, from fruits, starchy root vegetables, honey, tree saps. Get protein and fat from meat, eggs, nuts and seeds.
Originally Posted by tandoorichicken
(Post 83790)
Psychosomatic or not, IMHO it's not worth the shrink hours to correct a perceived gluten intolerance so it might be easier to just not eat gluten grains, since the nutrients are found elsewhere. (I'm not hating on psychiatrists, btw; I have psych friends).
Either people are are reacting in mass paranoia or something has changed over the last few years. Suddenly people are having trouble with wheat and peanuts when I never ever heard about this in the 80s and 90s. It's not that people didn't have allergies back then or celiac, but it wasn't something that was common enough to be in the public eye like this. Now I can't even give out halloween candy to the neighborhood kids without one or more of them piping up that they're allergic to peanuts (which I highly doubt, but I'm not their doctor so I would never test it). Forgive me if I'm really skeptical about this stuff but it seems like rare conditions have now become really common. It's the cumulative damage over the long term from three constituents I'm concerned about: 1) phytic acid, 2) lectins, 3) canavanine Here's three things I'm not concerned about: 1) natural saturated and monounsaturated fat, and w-3 2) protein: 3) getting enough glucose: [quote[I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, I'm just a biochemistry nerd with time and a loud mouth. Don't take it personally :D[/QUOTE] I'm definitely not. Don't worry. I think this is interesting. I think the main part I agree with you on is that less processed food is better, more natural food is better. I just don't like the way most paleos seem to approach this. |
Thanks for your reply. Yeah, unfortunately there's a lot of bad science out there, and people can get pretty dogmatic about it (as with any dietary paradigm). I'm pretty sure neither you nor I have the complete picture and anyone who says they do is selling snake oil.
One thing I want to clarify about gluten is that with evolution you often get a change in the general shape and a few insertions/deletions of genes and proteins over time. To be honest, the gluten protein in early domestic wheat probably wasn't that bad. People also had to do real work to process it, since these field grasses grew to about 8 feet high and had hard, thorny shells covering the seed husks (like pine cones). Heritage strains of wheat like einkorn and emmer have fewer chromosomes (diploid, 14 chromosomes, and tetraploid, 28 chromosomes, respectively) and so their gluten proteins are actually relatively harmless. Modern wheat, on the other hand has 42 chromosomes (hexaploid) and is bred to be 2 feet tall and huskless (perfect height and exposure to be sucked into a harvester) as well as naturally more resistant to pests and fungus. I'm willing to bet modern gluten plays some part in this pest resistance too. So the reason bread in the middle ages probably didn't affect people was that the more irritating form of the gluten protein is probably a more recent development. There are a few places online that sell emmer wheat. I want to try making bread at home with it. |
I also wanted to add that paleo isn't a high protein diet. It can be low-carb for many people, but it doesn't have to be. Plus, protein's a pretty lousy energy source. I generally get between 50-60% fat, which usually means pouring olive oil over everything, and take fish oil daily. For protein I aim for 0.75 - 1g / lb lean mass. Since I'm estimating I'm around 20% body fat at 165 lbs, that usually amounts to around 100 - 130g of protein per day. Carbs vary based on physical activity.
As I mentioned before I don't believe there's such a thing as THE paleo diet, but it's a pretty handy framework or model to build from. Also, Gary Taubes isn't really "paleo" per se; he's an Atkins advocate. Many people who follow a paleo-style plan have "evolved away" from Atkins. |
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