How much protein should compliment this diet?
 

First post, love this website, it has done great things for me in my first month:)

My information can be found here: http://fitday.com/fitness/PublicJour...Owner=Scottmor

20 years young
Male
5'9
159lbs


Basically, in my first month of planned weight loss, I went from about 183lbs to my current weight of 159lbs using what many would deem controversial methods. However, I look and feel better, so controversial or not, I'm happy with my results.

Now that I have lost all of those pounds and inches, and am still watching my calories to trim my figure down more, I am looking to tone some muscles. Primarily around the abs/pecs/obliques, as those are the areas that could use the most toning (obliques still stick out, abs could be more chiseled, and still working off my early-development man-boobs).

On top of almost every day for the last few weeks of 1 hour 10 minutes of nightly spot jogging, in my first week of calisthenics, my almost-daily exercise routine consists of:
200 incline push ups (reps of 20; fast pace; 1 minute between reps)
250 crunches (reps of 25; 1 minute between reps)
On the days where I really feel the lactic acid, I stick to the spot jogging, and leave the calisthenics for another day.
If I feel good about my progress, I will up the quota weekly/bi-weekly.

With this amount of calisthenics and exercise, how many grams of protein should I have in my daily diet? And is it best to have a serving of protein before and/or after a workout?

I have already seen rapid results with my dieting; at this pace, should it take long to notice more toned torso muscles? 2-3 months tops I hope!

Thanks

first off, welcome! But by this do you mean being 2000 cals deficient a day?:eek:

As far as protein, I shoot for 1g per pound of total body weight. Some will say that's excessive and it should be closer to 1g of lean body mass.

It's best to take in protein with every meal, and I use whey protein after my workout.

You probably won't like what I'm going to say but IMO you are probably burning muscle while being that deficient. Why are you trying to do it so fast? Don't take this the wrong way... but I have to ask... are you what some would consider "skinny fat"? My suggestion, if you are wanting to "tone up" is to lift weights and eat more, you will get where you're wanting to be faster than burning off muscle then wondering why your not "tone".

BTW congrats on your weight loss and I'm glad that you're happy with the results.

I'm with mike you need to eat more, probably almost double what you are.

Losing weight very rapidly causes you to lose significant muscle mass.

Heres an example.

200 lb man A who is 30% body fat, thats 140 lbs of muscle and 60 lbs of fat. He loses 40 lbs while preserving his muscle. He is now 12.5% body fat, weighing 160 lbs, his lean mass is 140 lbs and his fat mass is 20lbs.

200 lb man B who is also 30% body fat, loses 40 pounds very rapidly with a severe calorie deficit. He loses 20 lbs of muscle and only 20 lbs of fat. He is now 25% body fat with a lean mass of 120 lbs and a fat mass of 40 lbs.

Do you see the stark difference? If you could see these men side by side one would look in great shape, the other would still be overly fat, and even worse off after having lost 20 lbs of muscle.

Slower is better trust us!

I see you are doing a boat load of crunches probably because you want a six pack, but read this it might surprise you:

How to Get a Six Pack Doing Squats

My suggestion is to eat more, lift heavy, ditch those crunches they are bad for your back, get under the squat bar and become a Stalwart. SQUATS AND MORE SQUATS!

I agree with Mike and Jason. You are 20 years old, your testosterone levels are the highest they will ever be making this the best time of your life to build muscle. You just need the correct nutrition and exercise. I believe, because of your age you could push protein to 1.5 grams per pound of lean body weight (which is probably close to the 1g per pound of body weight that Mike suggested).

As Jason said, lift heavy (5 reps to failure, 3 to 4 sets) and as he suggested do squats. I have read of professional bodybuilders who don't do crunches and have tremendous abdominals from squats.

Eating at a deficit and building muscle is very difficult. Our bodies wants to remain the same or gain bodyfat. To do this the body will catabolize muscle even when there are fat stores to burn while eating at a deficit. To counter this I suggest incorporating a heavy lifting routine, get enough protein, and eat at maintenance. As you build lean muscle your bodyfat % will shrink.

the way the OP talks, leads me to believe that he wants to be small. I don't understand it but to each his own. I say this b/c he said things like "trim my figure down more" and referrs to it as "toning" instead of building.

I agree that with his test through the roof, now is the time to take advantage of it totally, but unless I'm reading it wrong, he's not wanting that.

If I were 20 again, I'd lift heavy and build up.... oh wait I did, boy I miss being young.

a. Is it possible to shape/tone muscles, opposed to just making them bigger?

b. Does an average of a 1500 caloric deficit a day for 35 days make for 15 total pounds lost? (1500 x 35 = 52500 / 3500 = 15)

c. If b is true, does going from a 1200 to 1700+ calorie diet create a significant jump on the scale?

I realized that my method of diet had it's consequences before I started and I appreciate all that everyone has pointed out that is wrong in my diet, because you're all completely right. But I did it because I thought it was easiest for me. And in my opinion, if it works for you, you see results, and you still feel 100% (which I do), then that's the bottom-line.

I actually don't mind burning a bit of muscle, as I have a very bulky, muscular frame (now hiding under body fat) I put on from joining the army back in 2006. I was able to keep this muscle, even after de-enlisting in 2008 (poor eyesight; nowhere in the ranks for me:( ) So since those last two years, I put on maybe 20 pounds of fat, with big, bulky muscles on underneath. I'm not trying to necessarily make my muscles bigger as I am trying to get them shaped nicer as my body fat disappears and makes them more presentable, if that makes any sense at all (spot on, 01gt4.6).

After 35 days of my calorie restriction, I intend to up my intake to perhaps =>1700, and I guess I'll aim for a good chunk of that to be from protein (thanks for that information!) I know I should still be losing some body fat at 1700 calories a day, but I expect the scale to go up as I take in more nutrients. If my calorie balance shows a deficit of, say, an average of 1500 calories over 35 days, should I expect the scale to peak at no higher than 168 (1500 x 35 = 52500 / 3500 = 15 [is that right])?

Also, I have access to a gym. Without much knowledge on weight lifting, heavy weights and a few reps to failure sounds to me like making your muscles bulge. I could be wrong, but call it gut-instinct. I figured the lighter workout of calisthenics would help shape muscles instead. Although I could have muscle building completely out of proportion; is it possible to either shape muscles or build muscles, or do you get what you get?

Thank you to all that reply and offer any kind of input. My posts are long right now because this is the part of my diet/exercise program that I was minimally prepared for. Please let me know if there are any further details I could share that would put things into perspective better. Extra thanks to those that read the entire post as well! For ease, I've posted all my direct questions at the top of this post, because I know I can be overly specific!

Just because you start lifting doesn't mean you are going to bulk up a ton. Bulk comes from a huge calorie surplus, being overly fat and perhaps steroids.

The compound lifts like I suggested will build some size yes, but they will also build a ton of functional strength. You want dense cut muscles not bulky round fat ones.

The way you are going at it right now, you are going to keep losing muscle and fat and by the time you get to your desired body fat level you will have depleted much of your valuable muscle.

Think about it this way, the maximum possible amount of muscle you can build naturally in one week is 1 lb, and thats if you are eating a crap load and just have amazing genes. Most people will be more like .5-.7 lbs per week. So really its not that much muscle weight or bulk, but you will be increasing your strength, the hardness, and the cuts of your muscle much more than you would starving yourself.

Take a look at some amateur olympic power lifters, they are not even that bulky, even some of them appear just a little bit muscular, but they lift huge amounts of weight. The bulky appearance comes from drugs or being too fat.

what Jason said is exactly what I was thinking.


Scott,
This is what I think (I could be wrong). I think that your muscles aren't as bulky as you may think. I say this b/c your weight tells me so, especially if you are complaining about fat. I think you have a little fat OVER your muscles making you think they are bigger than what they are.

Reshaping muscles isn't going to happen, you can make them smaller, keep them the same or make them bigger. Some ADVANCED bodybuilders may be able to do things suchs as manipulate the head of their biceps better than other people but your average Joe... not so much.

This is what I think you want, a lean muscluar (not "built") look, maybe that of a runner... with abs (like one of the smaller underwear models or swimmer). If so I'd suggest keep muscle mass as is and cut fat. The end result with be a lean, hard body, and you'll be able to see definition in the muscles without being bulky. To do this, as suggested compound lifts will help greatly, as will any good workout program. A clean diet that's NOT super deficient, maybe -500 cals a day. This will take longer for the scale to move but I feel that your body will change to what you want faster.

I know you are thinking there is no way in hell you'll try only being 500 calories deficient, keep in mind that in your activities log, you are not logging hours of sleep. This is showing you a little more deficient that you actually are. Log sleep, go 500 cals under/day, eat good, train hard, don't be in a rush b/c that will cost you more time and before you know it, you'll be where you always wanted to be.

I always worked better with visuals, so for what it's worth:

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0265.jpg

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0264.jpg : This one is with a little more flex.

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0267.jpg : An all out flex

In the mirror there is actually considerably more muscle definition. I am, afterall, using a 2.1 megapixel camera (my phone itself is 2.0 megapix- time for a new camera!) On a side note, although not very visible, I'm sporting a handlebar mustache attached to a pair o'mutton chops for Movember, since I saw less enthusiasm for the event than I thought I would. It all happens with support.

midwestj, I read the squat article, and it makes sense to me, and I like it. Starting next week I hope to be doing at least 2 nights in the gym, where I'll certainly pay mind to that squat bar. Most days I'm not at the gym, I figure I'd stick to the calisthenics and spot jogging for at least some good.

01gt4.6, I actually just noticed that I should have been adding sleep to my log last night, and I have corrected this for all days with my best guess on my average amount of sleep. The 1500 caloric deficit was calculated after sleep had been added.

So to make it perfectly clear, 1700 calories a day, where 1g of protein for my body weight comprises a fraction of that number, will still be ineffective? I am open to the idea of a 500 calorie deficit, except that the fact that I'd expect to see the scale jump up to as much as up to 170lbs. I'm not sure if my appearance would take that surge as well but nonetheless, the thought of the scale jumping and putting on even a little bit of pudge is very psychologically unsettling for me. Even still eating at a deficit, if I were to go from a 1500 deficit to a 500 deficit, would I notice a pudgier appearance for the first week or two?

your scale will not go up on a deficient, if it goes up then you are not deficient. BTW don't weight yourself often.
nice tats btw.

I'm 5-10 185, I was eating at 1800 for a while and this is actually when I lost a little bit of muscle. I am upset that I lost the muscle, I increased my intake to 2000. For someone like you with so little to lose, slowest is best, the faster the more unhealthy. Try 1900 for at least 2 weeks and see what happens.

Bodyweight x11 for fat loss, is a good general number. And for maintenance bodyweight x15.

If you are hitting the gym and are interested in squats here is a great free program based on squats:
StrongLifts 5x5: The Ultimate Strength and Muscle Program | StrongLifts.com

It also might change your thinking about dieting and exercise. Honestly I think your body fat would drop to what you want it to be by just gaining some lean mass, and that doesn't mean becoming a bulky meat head. If you add some muscle and the fat stays the same your overall body fat decreases.

Scott, I'm jumping onto this thread because judging from your pictures, you and I have a similar build. I too am going for some fat loss in my midsection, which will be tricky going into the holidays, but I think I can make it work. As it were, I'm also sporting some upper-lip brush for Movember. Every man deserves a little luxury!

The reason I bring this up is because I am eating roughly 2500 calories/day, doing no cardio whatsoever (unless you count supersets and explosive squat warmups as cardio =] ), and just focusing on raising my numbers in the gym (275# deadlift, 205# squat, 150# bench as of last week). Keep in mind that I do these lifts for no more than five reps at a time, and besides that a few accessory exercises and I'm done with the gym in under an hour. Four times a week.

And, I'm still losing fat. And gaining muscle. And for the most part, I still look like your pictures. I haven't ballooned in size at all over the last two years that I've been exercising like this. My weight has topped out at 165 lbs and right now I'm struggling to put on even more muscle.

Like Jason and Mike are saying, this is a long-term strategy for health. Your appearance will improve as a side-effect, but if you chase after appearance by depriving yourself of food for long periods of time and exercising so much you leave no room for recovery, you will only be sacrificing your health in the long run.

Stick to a long-term plan, commit to eating well and gaining strength, and all good things will follow.

Good luck.

Thank you midwestj, and thank you 01gt4.6 both very much. Your insight has been very helpful.

The 5x5 looks like a good start at 3 days a week in the gym. At least 2 or 3 days a week I think I'll keep on the incline push ups and crunches on top of that. If I understood the exercises correctly, I should be doing 5 sets of 5 squats/bench press/etc. of each exercise for one hour each visit, alternating A and B every other-other day, 3 days a week.. What I didn't understand from the article is how it stressed a 1 hour workout each time you do Exc. A and Exc. B. Am I supposed to stretch those few exercises to last an hour? Seems like a small workout to fit into 1 hour...

As for my weight change while deficient, my Fitday results say otherwise. One such example: a few weeks back, there was a day where I had about 2,350 calories in one day, which is around a bit under my maintenance weight. The next day, I weighed about 1 pound less than I did the day before, but kept to about 1,250 calories for this day anyway. The next day, despite eating 1,100 less, I weighed more than I did the previous day. The only difference exercise-wise between these days was I did a couple sets of push ups. I weigh myself wearing the same thing, and at the same point in my day everyday- right after I wake up in the morn and do my dirty in the washroom. And I do weigh myself every day and I prefer to have it that way because I always know where I'm at.

I drank 96oz (1,170 calories) of beer on the first night, but I only drink maybe every other weekend, if not longer (so the excess isn't on excessive days... but beer is good:o ). I don't know if that plays a major factor in this story, as I am judging that 1 calorie of beer will have the same effect as 1 calorie of... cheese.

The above example (not the beer one) isn't the first time I've noticed weird shifts in the pattern, but I believe this instance is the most extreme. Otherwise, differences have been only by a pound or two by the day, up or down. If you were to take a look at my weight change graph, you'd notice it is for the most part on the downward slope, but with bumps throughout, some of them by as much as 3 or 4 pounds. But there isn't a day where I've eaten any more than my maintenance weight.

Even on days where there is little difference between what I ate and exercised one day and the next, the first day I might lose a pound or two, the next I might gain a pound or two. This would make sense if I weighed myself at different times of the day, but not when I take measures to weigh myself at the same point in my day.

Perhaps this is why you'd suggest I don't weigh so often? Can very natural biological shifts play tricks on the scale on a day-to-day basis?

From what I gathered, this is now my plan (not set in stone):
1900-2200 calories; 160g of protein from this
2-3 days a week in the gym with the 5x5 and other exercises in mind
3-4 days a week of my calisthenics routine
A minimum of 1 hour of spot jogging a night OR 40 minutes at 9km/h on the treadmill on gym nights.

Also, of those 1900-2200 calories, does it matter if I get those nutrients from Swiss Chalet or a TV dinner or a home cooked meal, etc? I know that fat/carbs/protein will play a role, but are 50 carbs/protein/fat as good from Swiss Chalet as they are a home cooked meal? Yes, I know about saturated/non-saturated and so on.

Thanks!

Can very natural biological shifts play tricks on the scale on a day-to-day basis?

In a nutshell, yes. Us girls know this very well thanks to our hormones but there are a lot of factors that affect the scale. If you do a hard workout, the next day you'll have some swollen muscle tissue at the molecular level while the tissue rebuilds itself. Swelling = water weight gain. This will show up on the scale even though it doesn't in the mirror. Sodium, alcohol, and caffeine can all affect your hydration status as well. Since we are mostly water, small fluctuations in hydration can have large impacts on the scale. A high fiber meal will retain water as it passes through your digestive tract (one way fiber prevents constipation) so even healthy low calorie foods can affect the scale. FWIW I also weigh daily but I only record it weekly. I can't slip too much in a week, and it helps to even out those pesky data points.

Your scale may move down slower at a smaller deficit, but if you truly are at a deficit, it will still move down over time. If the scale doesn't reflect what the log says, then you need to reevaluate the accuracy of your activities and the way you measure your portions.

I won't comment on the workouts, men are built differently so what works for me won't work for you on that front. But I do agree on the protein. Your body needs protein to produce the many day to day hormones that keep everything working. If there's insufficient protein in the diet to maintain hormone production, the body will take protein from muscle tissue to keep these vital functions going. Excess protein will be turned into fuel, so as long as you're in good health, it's very hard to eat too much protein.

Quality of food matters definitely.

You won't be able to put on lean mass eating big macs and doritos. You can look at my food log I have months of archives, my meals are separated. I think my style of eating is really easy, anyone can do it. I don't buy expensive organic foods, but I do by healthy whole foods.

Alcohol does effect you differently than other calories, but thats an entirely different and lengthy discussion. Moderation is best for this stuff. It slows fat loss, muscle growth, reduces testosterone, dehydrates you, depletes your vitamins, basically puts yourself in a bad state for any muscle growth or fat burning. The way you metabolize alcohol and food while you are drinking is different than when there is no alcohol present.

I really think you might be exercising too much if you do that current plan. The more you exercise the harder it will be to gain muscle, just like not eating enough, burning too many calories will also cause you to eat your own muscle. You don't need to work so hard to get results. I work out only 3 days a week and basically just rest on my off days not much physical activity and I lose 2 lbs per week. I would stick with the 3 5x5 workouts and maybe 30 mins of LIGHT physical activity on your non workout days. Keyword is light so don't go busting your ass 6 days a week, chances are you will burn out or your 6 workouts won't be as intense and effective as 3 short super intense effective workouts could be.

Really dude those crunches are not good for you, there are so many other ab exercises that keep your spine and neck in a neutral position that get much better results, try them out. Lots of stability ball exercises and planks/side planks.

The 5x5 guideline is to not work out for more than an hour I believe. And if you are working out fast you could take longer rest between sets, try doing more weight so you need that recovery time.

I weigh myself everyday too, but changes day to day up or down are to be expected, what you want is a trend over time in the direction you want.

this is why I said
water weight plays a huge part of what the scale says. I'm notorious for weighing myself daily, or multiple times a day, it's a habit and a bad one at that!

Scott, your new plan is good but I would highly recommend keeping a mind towards recovery. You don't gain muscle/lose fat in the gym, you gain/lose while your body is resting and recovering. Do your spot jogging/pushups as a WARM-UP for around 20 minutes before you start your 5x5 routine for the night, then leave it be. It might be hard to accept at first that more is not better, it took me a while too, but seriously, you'd do better giving your body a chance to respond and adapt rather than wearing it out.

But by recovery, I don't mean going out and drinking beer. I mean eat wholesome food and get some nice shuteye.

I've taken a bit of everyone's input into perspective, and have integrated it into my plan. And I'm happy where my plans are at now:)

This weekend wasn't a particularly strong start, but I knew it was a party weekend going into it. On top of the beer and liquor though, I was still able to remain at a caloric deficit of about 500, even though I know my nutrients were from the wrong places. I even took my Saturday workout off to allow recovery from the x amount of days I did exercise in a row, and I hope to have my first shot at the 5x5 on Monday or Tuesday.

I have a primary question to challenge in this post. Since I've brought my caloric intake up, I've been eating more (duh). But what I find myself doing is eating very little in the morning, for fear that I will fill up my calorie budget to early.

The following scenario is what I project to be the average day for me without any further advice.

I end up at maybe 500 calories on the day by evening, because this is for fear that I'll fill up my calorie budget too early.
Then I have dinner at about 7pm which raises my calorie count to between 1200-1500.
After dinner is usually when I would do my calisthenics to utilize dinner's protein. A few hours later at around 11 or so, I have a snack with some protein to supplement my calisthenics, and carbs for the energy. This brings it to 1400-1700 calories on the day.
An hour or two after my snack is my 1h10m of spot jogging, after which I have another snack, because I know that I'm still too deficient. This would bring me up to 2100 calories tops (I've upped my ante to between 2000-2200 calories a day, because according to this weekend, I am still losing weight with that many a day. Once again, spot on, 01gt4.6)
At about 3 in the morning or so, I'll hit the hay for at least 8 hours, and repeat the next day (maybe alternate calisthenics between calisthenics, gym, and rest day)

So I have myself at what I'm pretty sure is a healthy deficit, but the apparent issue is that I'm receiving the bulk of my nutrients within 5 or 6 hours of each other. This doesn't sound like it's too healthy for me, but then I consider my late lifestyle. Most of my incoming nutrients are consumed in a close window before and after my workouts. Would this be more/less/somewhat ideal? I don't think I do this on purpose, but if I know exactly why I should or shouldn't be doing this, it'd be a constant reminder to me throughout the day and sway my habits.



Also running through my mind, and I apologize if anyone takes offense to the subject, but I've only recently started to indulge in marijuana. I was wondering, ALL other health concerns aside please, if this happens to play a role in weight loss? I've already given up munchies, so that shan't be a problem! Frankly, on October 14th when I was sitting around high and decided that I'm going to get my army body back, I made my first log on Fitday and began exercising frequently. And I've logged every day since then. No, I'm not endorsing pot as a miracle weight loss tool..... but hey, if it weren't for that batch, I might still be wearing that big gut I had a month ago;)

i dont indulge in marijuana use myself, but sounds like you are using it for medical purposes :), so its at least legal in most states.

Jptfenwick, I'm going to gather from Scotty's writing style that he ain't from the states.

Scott, you'll likely get a range of answers regarding your meal timings, so I'll start off by saying I usually don't eat much in the mornings either, although I don't do this because of calorie counting — I do it because I'm usually not hungry in the morning. A cup of coffee will usually do it for me until noon.

As far as peri-workout nutrition goes, you don't want to ever workout on a full-stomach, but it is important to have protein and some carb a few hours before you workout. On the days you do 5 x 5, save your biggest meal for after your workout, where it will go towards building and repairing muscle and replenishing your energy. I've heard it said that within the first few hours of heavy lifting you can eat pretty much whatever you want without it going to fat, and while I wouldn't jump on the ice cream right after the gym, pounding down a large, sensible meal after you get home will really go a long way in helping with recovery.

If you need help filling in calories throughout the day, carry some snacks with you and just graze at your leisure throughout the day. Beef jerky, almonds, some fruit, carrot sticks, or the occasional protein shake in a water bottle are all great for this.