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Old 02-06-2012, 03:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re Twisting words

"I didn't say fortunately or definitely and I didn't say all the time. Why did you twist my words?"

No, you didn't, but to say that in some cases they are right is to say that the behavior is acceptable to you. Whether it happens all the time is irrelevant.

I'm sorry I got distracted by the side issue of excess weight being unhealthy- that belonged to another discussion. The link was simply the quickest and easiest way to provide the reference as it had complete information. Your rules talk about posting links for personal or financial gain- my motive in posting had nothing to do with that. Interesting interpretation from a moderator of a site that has an "affiliate program," though.

A lot of things have gotten conflated here. My original post was about prejudice and disrespect, and somehow you went off on costs of obesity to the health system etc...

Again, this seems not to be the forum for me and I'm sorry to have disrupted things.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:17 AM   #12 (permalink)
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neurogrrl, the problem I see with linking to a book is that before anyone can understand your point, they have to buy the book and read it. Expense and time, not everyone has it.

Better to make the point in your own words or point to a free website that provides the information that you want to provide.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:28 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Smile Point taken

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Originally Posted by handcycle2005 View Post
neurogrrl, the problem I see with linking to a book is that before anyone can understand your point, they have to buy the book and read it. Expense and time, not everyone has it.

Better to make the point in your own words or point to a free website that provides the information that you want to provide.
Agreed about the time and not normally the way I would choose to do things. I was probably a bit disconcerted by the way my post about prejudice was transformed into a discussion of the effects of obesity on health and finances, and I've apologized for getting drawn into that discussion. As to expense, one can go to a library or bookstore and read the book, or relevant sections, without spending any money. If I had spent money on every book I read I would be living on the street.

Handcycle, I appreciate the advice you gave me in the other thread and I *really* appreciate your calm words here. ((((respect))))
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:42 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by neurogrrl View Post
"I didn't say fortunately or definitely and I didn't say all the time. Why did you twist my words?"

No, you didn't, but to say that in some cases they are right is to say that the behavior is acceptable to you. Whether it happens all the time is irrelevant.
I'm not saying it's acceptable, if fact I thought I made it clear that I didn't think it was.
I guess I could have been more specific in my response to you b/c it seems that you mistook what I said. Maybe I should have worded it as..
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many people who have had doctors ignore their actual problems in lieu of telling them to lose weight.
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Unfortunately the doctors are probably right in many cases.
What I was saying is in many cases the doctors are probably right about the weight may be the issue. I'm not advocating ignoring the problem. I am advocating acknowledging that the weight CAN be the problem, or at least PART of the problem.


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The link was simply the quickest and easiest way to provide the reference as it had complete information. Your rules talk about posting links for personal or financial gain- my motive in posting had nothing to do with that. Interesting interpretation from a moderator of a site that has an "affiliate program," though.
The rules don't say that ONLY those links are a violation. Rule #1 states No Advertising or self promotion <-pretty cut and dry
#3 states Other links might be removed, at the discretion of the moderators. <- not much of a grey area here either

Me removing your link wasn't anything personal towards you, although you seem to have taken it that way by you getting so defensive. Handycycle or anyone else can tell you that usually when someone shows up on the forums posting links to ANYTHING being sold (including books) they get banned. This isn't because we are a bunch of hard asses, it's becuase the spammers run rampant and are a nuisance. The members hate the spammers, that's why the thread to report spam in the biggest thread in the Feedback and Support section. Many times things to even get a chance to get reported b/c we remove it before the members see it.

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A lot of things have gotten conflated here. My original post was about prejudice and disrespect, and somehow you went off on costs of obesity to the health system etc...
Yes I did talk about cost of obesity and the health issues that could send you to your doctor or your grave. I've had clients lose a parent due to health issues brought on by obesity. I thought when you said
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If anyone feels like sharing experiences, I'd love to hear them, as well as any insights you have as to how it affected your own behavior and health.
... that you wanted to hear OUR personal experiences. Personally my doctor has never discriminated against me because of my weight. In fact, like Amy, my doctor didn't say anything about it (when he could have). I guess you can say that he IN FACT did disrespect me by NOT bringing it up... until my cholesterol was really high. I think this happens all too often b/c weight is a touchy subject, more so with women. Doctors are supposed to look at the big picture, right?

To be honest, some doctors have better "bed side manners" than others. I'm sure that people of average BMI have been disrespected by their doctor.

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Old 02-06-2012, 04:26 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Crossed wires?

I absolutely do not think physicians should ignore weight. I was not advocating that at all. However, medical training is more than science- it involves learning to leave one's own prejudices at the door, in other words not to *prejudge* a patient. Addressing a patient's weight going forward can be done without alienating the person- again, in the same way that smoking can be handled. Out of their own frustration, many doctors (not all by any means) resist examining or treating a patient for other issues- which could be a bad knee or tonsillitis- in favor of trying to make the patient feel bad about being obese. Being condescending or shaming doesn't cause improved health or long-term weight loss (if someone has evidence to the contrary please share it) however, it makes the doc feel better in the short term, which is why it happens.

(and BTW if anyone here has felt I treated them that way I will personally apologize).

You did share your personal experiences and I don't think I expressed any issues with them- or anyone else's. I'm not in the habit of arguing with people's personal anecdotes lol ;-) They are what they are.

Regarding the link, yes, you've reserved the right to arbitrarily remove links and I'm not disputing that. However, the posts specifically forbidden are those that self-promote, advertise, etc.. I am used to other communities where the site of that unnamed bookstore, because it has such complete information, is routinely used by people to provide references. That bookstore site is also used by other, major, book-related sites- again, because their information is so complete it serves as a sort of library and not because anyone is promoting their business. Admittedly it wasn't the best link I could have provided under the circumstances- it wasn't even the reference I really would have preferred as it's kind of old- but I was distracted, lazy or whatever- mea culpa.

This whole thread is making me tired. I've never been accused of trolling or bad community behavior *ever* on any other forum, but I have and will take what you have said into consideration.

Have a good night.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:56 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I absolutely do not think physicians should ignore weight. I was not advocating that at all. However, medical training is more than science- it involves learning to leave one's own prejudices at the door, in other words not to *prejudge* a patient. Addressing a patient's weight going forward can be done without alienating the person- again, in the same way that smoking can be handled. Out of their own frustration, many doctors (not all by any means) resist examining or treating a patient for other issues- which could be a bad knee or tonsillitis- in favor of trying to make the patient feel bad about being obese. Being condescending or shaming doesn't cause improved health or long-term weight loss (if someone has evidence to the contrary please share it) however, it makes the doc feel better in the short term, which is why it happens.
Not to get off subject... but I will, sort of. I agree doctors shouldn't make their patients feel bad or treat them with disrespect. I'm sure they do it... because they can. They know the patient will likely be back b/c many doctors aren't taking new patients (at least around here) and so what if the patient leaves? Doctors are usually double booked anyway, so it's not like they are hurting for business. It's a shame but I'd bet there's a lot of truth in that.

Straying from the original subject but stick to "prejudices".
As far as "...leave one's own prejudices at the door, in other words not to *prejudge* a patient." I agree here but I think sometimes a little prejudice IS needed. I don't know how long you've been in the medical profession, but I'd bet you know of or have heard of someone that is a pill head. There is ALWAYS something wrong with them, even when nothing is wrong. If the meds are regulated properly and it's caught, they'll be back with their spouse or child that got hurt. There are many things that can't be easily detected (I believe soft tissue damage may be one, I'm not a doctor) so it's easy for someone to go to the doctor and say their back or neck or whatever is hurting just to get a Rx. Doctors are quick to write prescriptions. If pain wasn't so hard to disprove there would be a lot less attorneys that chance an ambulance.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:53 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Default I didn't leave because...

I didn't want to go out on a bad note. I'm still not feeling comfortable with the culture I seem to have jumped into and hope that it is possible for me to delete my profile and posts after we work this out without deleting all my log information.

I'm still baffled by what happened in that thread even between my initial post and your response but I am wiped out tonight. Tomorrow I hope to pick it up again and if you're willing perhaps we can figure out how we've been misunderstanding each other.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I didn't want to go out on a bad note. I'm still not feeling comfortable with the culture I seem to have jumped into and hope that it is possible for me to delete my profile and posts after we work this out without deleting all my log information.

I'm still baffled by what happened in that thread even between my initial post and your response but I am wiped out tonight. Tomorrow I hope to pick it up again and if you're willing perhaps we can figure out how we've been misunderstanding each other.
We are fine, you are not on a bad note with me. I was pissed but I'm okay now, I think both of us just misunderstood each other.

I personally like a good debate. IMO that's how a lot of good information and point of views are uncovered. I was ONLY upset b/c I felt you were twisting my words. Maybe I was clear on my initial response. I think we both agree on a lot of points. On the points that we don't agree on, we can agree to disagree... or we can pick it back up where we left off. Either way.

As far as "I'm still not feeling comfortable with the culture I seem to have jumped into and hope that it is possible for me to delete my profile and posts after we work this out without deleting all my log information." I want you to feel comfortable, and like I said, it was a misunderstanding, I have no issue with you. You can delete your posts if you chose to but that is totally up to you. As far as deleting your profile, that would require admin to delete your account. That generally doesn't happen unless it's a premium (paying) member. The food side and the forum side are separate so your food logs should always remain.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:51 PM   #19 (permalink)
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The twisting of one's words is trollish behavior indeed. And to do it in three separate posts is trollish X3.
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I've never been accused of trolling...
And for the record, you're not being "accused" here either. There's a big difference in what I said and how you've interpreted it. But if you want to play the victim, be my guest.

I've taught youth. Sometimes when the situation warranted, I'd say "Stop acting foolish". The kid would turn around and say "You called me a fool!". So, read between the lines.
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:01 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default VitoVino,

the distinction you made in your example about working with youth is one of behavior versus being. My protest was about your saying my *behavior* was trollish; I did not say you said I was *a troll.*
Anyway, I suspect you will agree with me that that part of this discussion is pretty inane. There were some misunderstandings earlier that led to some of us getting a little offended and it's being worked out.
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