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Scottmor 11-19-2010 04:00 AM

How much protein should compliment this diet?
 
First post, love this website, it has done great things for me in my first month:)

My information can be found here: http://fitday.com/fitness/PublicJour...Owner=Scottmor

20 years young
Male
5'9
159lbs


Basically, in my first month of planned weight loss, I went from about 183lbs to my current weight of 159lbs using what many would deem controversial methods. However, I look and feel better, so controversial or not, I'm happy with my results.

Now that I have lost all of those pounds and inches, and am still watching my calories to trim my figure down more, I am looking to tone some muscles. Primarily around the abs/pecs/obliques, as those are the areas that could use the most toning (obliques still stick out, abs could be more chiseled, and still working off my early-development man-boobs).

On top of almost every day for the last few weeks of 1 hour 10 minutes of nightly spot jogging, in my first week of calisthenics, my almost-daily exercise routine consists of:
200 incline push ups (reps of 20; fast pace; 1 minute between reps)
250 crunches (reps of 25; 1 minute between reps)
On the days where I really feel the lactic acid, I stick to the spot jogging, and leave the calisthenics for another day.
If I feel good about my progress, I will up the quota weekly/bi-weekly.

With this amount of calisthenics and exercise, how many grams of protein should I have in my daily diet? And is it best to have a serving of protein before and/or after a workout?

I have already seen rapid results with my dieting; at this pace, should it take long to notice more toned torso muscles? 2-3 months tops I hope!

Thanks

01gt4.6 11-19-2010 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottmor (Post 25902)
using what many would deem controversial methods.

first off, welcome! But by this do you mean being 2000 cals deficient a day?:eek:

As far as protein, I shoot for 1g per pound of total body weight. Some will say that's excessive and it should be closer to 1g of lean body mass.

It's best to take in protein with every meal, and I use whey protein after my workout.

You probably won't like what I'm going to say but IMO you are probably burning muscle while being that deficient. Why are you trying to do it so fast? Don't take this the wrong way... but I have to ask... are you what some would consider "skinny fat"? My suggestion, if you are wanting to "tone up" is to lift weights and eat more, you will get where you're wanting to be faster than burning off muscle then wondering why your not "tone".

BTW congrats on your weight loss and I'm glad that you're happy with the results.

midwestj 11-19-2010 07:10 AM

I'm with mike you need to eat more, probably almost double what you are.

Losing weight very rapidly causes you to lose significant muscle mass.

Heres an example.

200 lb man A who is 30% body fat, thats 140 lbs of muscle and 60 lbs of fat. He loses 40 lbs while preserving his muscle. He is now 12.5% body fat, weighing 160 lbs, his lean mass is 140 lbs and his fat mass is 20lbs.

200 lb man B who is also 30% body fat, loses 40 pounds very rapidly with a severe calorie deficit. He loses 20 lbs of muscle and only 20 lbs of fat. He is now 25% body fat with a lean mass of 120 lbs and a fat mass of 40 lbs.

Do you see the stark difference? If you could see these men side by side one would look in great shape, the other would still be overly fat, and even worse off after having lost 20 lbs of muscle.

Slower is better trust us!

I see you are doing a boat load of crunches probably because you want a six pack, but read this it might surprise you:

How to Get a Six Pack Doing Squats

My suggestion is to eat more, lift heavy, ditch those crunches they are bad for your back, get under the squat bar and become a Stalwart. SQUATS AND MORE SQUATS!

rpmcduff 11-19-2010 03:11 PM

I agree with Mike and Jason. You are 20 years old, your testosterone levels are the highest they will ever be making this the best time of your life to build muscle. You just need the correct nutrition and exercise. I believe, because of your age you could push protein to 1.5 grams per pound of lean body weight (which is probably close to the 1g per pound of body weight that Mike suggested).

As Jason said, lift heavy (5 reps to failure, 3 to 4 sets) and as he suggested do squats. I have read of professional bodybuilders who don't do crunches and have tremendous abdominals from squats.

Eating at a deficit and building muscle is very difficult. Our bodies wants to remain the same or gain bodyfat. To do this the body will catabolize muscle even when there are fat stores to burn while eating at a deficit. To counter this I suggest incorporating a heavy lifting routine, get enough protein, and eat at maintenance. As you build lean muscle your bodyfat % will shrink.

01gt4.6 11-19-2010 03:55 PM

the way the OP talks, leads me to believe that he wants to be small. I don't understand it but to each his own. I say this b/c he said things like "trim my figure down more" and referrs to it as "toning" instead of building.

I agree that with his test through the roof, now is the time to take advantage of it totally, but unless I'm reading it wrong, he's not wanting that.

If I were 20 again, I'd lift heavy and build up.... oh wait I did, boy I miss being young.

Scottmor 11-19-2010 07:38 PM

a. Is it possible to shape/tone muscles, opposed to just making them bigger?

b. Does an average of a 1500 caloric deficit a day for 35 days make for 15 total pounds lost? (1500 x 35 = 52500 / 3500 = 15)

c. If b is true, does going from a 1200 to 1700+ calorie diet create a significant jump on the scale?

I realized that my method of diet had it's consequences before I started and I appreciate all that everyone has pointed out that is wrong in my diet, because you're all completely right. But I did it because I thought it was easiest for me. And in my opinion, if it works for you, you see results, and you still feel 100% (which I do), then that's the bottom-line.

I actually don't mind burning a bit of muscle, as I have a very bulky, muscular frame (now hiding under body fat) I put on from joining the army back in 2006. I was able to keep this muscle, even after de-enlisting in 2008 (poor eyesight; nowhere in the ranks for me:( ) So since those last two years, I put on maybe 20 pounds of fat, with big, bulky muscles on underneath. I'm not trying to necessarily make my muscles bigger as I am trying to get them shaped nicer as my body fat disappears and makes them more presentable, if that makes any sense at all (spot on, 01gt4.6).

After 35 days of my calorie restriction, I intend to up my intake to perhaps =>1700, and I guess I'll aim for a good chunk of that to be from protein (thanks for that information!) I know I should still be losing some body fat at 1700 calories a day, but I expect the scale to go up as I take in more nutrients. If my calorie balance shows a deficit of, say, an average of 1500 calories over 35 days, should I expect the scale to peak at no higher than 168 (1500 x 35 = 52500 / 3500 = 15 [is that right])?

Also, I have access to a gym. Without much knowledge on weight lifting, heavy weights and a few reps to failure sounds to me like making your muscles bulge. I could be wrong, but call it gut-instinct. I figured the lighter workout of calisthenics would help shape muscles instead. Although I could have muscle building completely out of proportion; is it possible to either shape muscles or build muscles, or do you get what you get?

Thank you to all that reply and offer any kind of input. My posts are long right now because this is the part of my diet/exercise program that I was minimally prepared for. Please let me know if there are any further details I could share that would put things into perspective better. Extra thanks to those that read the entire post as well! For ease, I've posted all my direct questions at the top of this post, because I know I can be overly specific!

midwestj 11-19-2010 07:51 PM

Just because you start lifting doesn't mean you are going to bulk up a ton. Bulk comes from a huge calorie surplus, being overly fat and perhaps steroids.

The compound lifts like I suggested will build some size yes, but they will also build a ton of functional strength. You want dense cut muscles not bulky round fat ones.

The way you are going at it right now, you are going to keep losing muscle and fat and by the time you get to your desired body fat level you will have depleted much of your valuable muscle.

Think about it this way, the maximum possible amount of muscle you can build naturally in one week is 1 lb, and thats if you are eating a crap load and just have amazing genes. Most people will be more like .5-.7 lbs per week. So really its not that much muscle weight or bulk, but you will be increasing your strength, the hardness, and the cuts of your muscle much more than you would starving yourself.

Take a look at some amateur olympic power lifters, they are not even that bulky, even some of them appear just a little bit muscular, but they lift huge amounts of weight. The bulky appearance comes from drugs or being too fat.

01gt4.6 11-19-2010 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestj (Post 25975)
The way you are going at it right now, you are going to keep losing muscle and fat and by the time you get to your desired body fat level you will have depleted much of your valuable muscle.

what Jason said is exactly what I was thinking.


Scott,
This is what I think (I could be wrong). I think that your muscles aren't as bulky as you may think. I say this b/c your weight tells me so, especially if you are complaining about fat. I think you have a little fat OVER your muscles making you think they are bigger than what they are.

Reshaping muscles isn't going to happen, you can make them smaller, keep them the same or make them bigger. Some ADVANCED bodybuilders may be able to do things suchs as manipulate the head of their biceps better than other people but your average Joe... not so much.

This is what I think you want, a lean muscluar (not "built") look, maybe that of a runner... with abs (like one of the smaller underwear models or swimmer). If so I'd suggest keep muscle mass as is and cut fat. The end result with be a lean, hard body, and you'll be able to see definition in the muscles without being bulky. To do this, as suggested compound lifts will help greatly, as will any good workout program. A clean diet that's NOT super deficient, maybe -500 cals a day. This will take longer for the scale to move but I feel that your body will change to what you want faster.

I know you are thinking there is no way in hell you'll try only being 500 calories deficient, keep in mind that in your activities log, you are not logging hours of sleep. This is showing you a little more deficient that you actually are. Log sleep, go 500 cals under/day, eat good, train hard, don't be in a rush b/c that will cost you more time and before you know it, you'll be where you always wanted to be.

Scottmor 11-19-2010 09:11 PM

I always worked better with visuals, so for what it's worth:

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0265.jpg

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0264.jpg : This one is with a little more flex.

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0267.jpg : An all out flex

In the mirror there is actually considerably more muscle definition. I am, afterall, using a 2.1 megapixel camera (my phone itself is 2.0 megapix- time for a new camera!) On a side note, although not very visible, I'm sporting a handlebar mustache attached to a pair o'mutton chops for Movember, since I saw less enthusiasm for the event than I thought I would. It all happens with support.

midwestj, I read the squat article, and it makes sense to me, and I like it. Starting next week I hope to be doing at least 2 nights in the gym, where I'll certainly pay mind to that squat bar. Most days I'm not at the gym, I figure I'd stick to the calisthenics and spot jogging for at least some good.

01gt4.6, I actually just noticed that I should have been adding sleep to my log last night, and I have corrected this for all days with my best guess on my average amount of sleep. The 1500 caloric deficit was calculated after sleep had been added.

So to make it perfectly clear, 1700 calories a day, where 1g of protein for my body weight comprises a fraction of that number, will still be ineffective? I am open to the idea of a 500 calorie deficit, except that the fact that I'd expect to see the scale jump up to as much as up to 170lbs. I'm not sure if my appearance would take that surge as well but nonetheless, the thought of the scale jumping and putting on even a little bit of pudge is very psychologically unsettling for me. Even still eating at a deficit, if I were to go from a 1500 deficit to a 500 deficit, would I notice a pudgier appearance for the first week or two?

01gt4.6 11-19-2010 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottmor (Post 25989)
I always worked better with visuals, so for what it's worth:

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0265.jpg

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0264.jpg : This one is with a little more flex.

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/...r/HPIM0267.jpg : An all out flex

In the mirror there is actually considerably more muscle definition. I am, afterall, using a 2.1 megapixel camera (my phone itself is 2.0 megapix- time for a new camera!) On a side note, although not very visible, I'm sporting a handlebar mustache attached to a pair o'mutton chops for Movember, since I saw less enthusiasm for the event than I thought I would. It all happens with support.

midwestj, I read the squat article, and it makes sense to me, and I like it. Starting next week I hope to be doing at least 2 nights in the gym, where I'll certainly pay mind to that squat bar. Most days I'm not at the gym, I figure I'd stick to the calisthenics and spot jogging for at least some good.

01gt4.6, I actually just noticed that I should have been adding sleep to my log last night, and I have corrected this for all days with my best guess on my average amount of sleep. The 1500 caloric deficit was calculated after sleep had been added.

So to make it perfectly clear, 1700 calories a day, where 1g of protein for my body weight comprises a fraction of that number, will still be ineffective? I am open to the idea of a 500 calorie deficit, except that the fact that I'd expect to see the scale jump up to as much as up to 170lbs. I'm not sure if my appearance would take that surge as well but nonetheless, the thought of the scale jumping and putting on even a little bit of pudge is very psychologically unsettling for me. Even still eating at a deficit, if I were to go from a 1500 deficit to a 500 deficit, would I notice a pudgier appearance for the first week or two?

your scale will not go up on a deficient, if it goes up then you are not deficient. BTW don't weight yourself often.
nice tats btw.


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